A Response to KnownNoMore’s Video: Sye Ten Bruggencate’s Presuppositional Apologetics Refuted – Part 3: Logic without God

This is the third part of refutation of a video posted by KnownNoMore in response to the transcendental argument for God.  In this section, we will examine KnownNoMore’s response to the argument that the laws of logic cannot be justified in the atheist’s worldview.  You can view the full video from KnowNoMore here:

The argument starts with listing the properties of the laws of logic.  The laws of logic are immaterial, invariant and universal.  God is  immaterial, invariant, and universal, so the properties of the laws of logic make sense in the Christian worldview.  However, in the atheist worldview, how can anything that is immaterial exist in a world made of only molecules in motion.  How can things be eternal in a finite universe?  How can the atheist justify something that is universal, that exists all places at all times?

KnownNoMore gets around this difficulty by disagreeing on what the laws of logic are.  KnownNoMore states that the laws of logics are statements.  For example, the law of identity is just a sentence in the english language and can change.  He says the law of identity is not a necessary fact, but a description of a necessary fact.  Because of this KnownNoMore claims the transcendental argument commits the fallacy of reification.  He claims that the argument is treating the law as if it is an actual thing.  He states that logic is not a entity, but a concept.  This is a similar technique used in an article sent to me via Twitter by an atheist on Katholon.com, titled A Critique of Sye Ten Bruggencate’s proofthatGodexists.org., The article claims that the laws of logic are merely concepts.

So the question then becomes, what are the laws of logic?  An article by James N. Anderson and Greg Welty propose that the Laws of Logic are something different altogether.   The full article can be found here: http://www.proginosko.com/docs/The_Lord_of_Non-Contradiction.pdf

Anderson and Welty argue the following points.  They contend that the laws of logic are truths.  They are things that are true.  They exhibit the quality of being true.  I don’t see any argument that the laws of logic are truths.

But what is a truth?  Typically, we use the term proposition as primary bearers of truth.  So we can, for labeling purposes call the laws of logic propositions.  Also, propositions are language independent.  They are only language dependent in the weak sense that language is required in order to articulate and communicate propositions.

We have demonstrated that the laws of logic are truths, but what is the subject matter of these laws?  Take the law of non-contradiciton.  It is a truth about truths.  It is the truth that no truth whatsoever can be a falsehood.  The law of non-contradiction is a truth about propositions and propositions are primary bearers of truth-value.They are propositions about propositions, truths about truths.

Furthermore, the laws of logic are necessary.  They are necessary truths, not contingent truths and their necessity is self-evident.

The laws of logic really do exist.  We speak about them as though they really exist, we take it as truth that only things that actually exist can impact our world, and we have determined that the laws of logic have truth properties.  Thus, something can only bear a property if it actually exists. Also, if they do exist, and are also necessary, then they necessarily exist.  They are true in all possible worlds as well as ours.

The laws of logic are immaterial, they don’t exist physically.  Since physical entities are contingent entities, and the laws are logic are necessary entities, they cannot be physical entities.

So the laws of logic are real entities, but are not physical.  So what category do they fall under?  To answer this question, we’d argue that the laws of logic exhibit intentionality.  Since the laws of logic are propositions about propositions, truths about truths, they exhibit directness and intentionality.  We’d also propose they exhibit aspectual shape.  The two statements, The water is in the glass and The H2O is in the glass, both are directed to the same thing, water, but exhibit different aspectual shapes.  They also convey the truth about what is in the glass.

This leads us to the next point.  Since they exhibit both directness and aspectual shape, they are intrinsically intentional.  What other thing exhibits intrinsic intentionality?  Thoughts.

But whose thoughts are they? Are they our thoughts?  No.  We are contingent beings and the laws of logic exist necessarily.  If the laws of logic are necessarily existent thoughts, then they must come from a necessarily existent mind, a mind from a necessity existent person.  This person would have to be God.  Thus, we argue that the laws of logic are actually the thoughts of God.

This argument provides proof of God’s existence from logic.  It is an alternative to the claims of KnownNoMore and those provided on Kathalon.com.  Interestingly, I was in a recent discussion with an atheist in a Google Plus community who posed the challenge: “Prove that God cannot exist without God.”  I used this argument to show that without God, logic could not exist.  This argument also avoids the criticism of committing the fallacy of reification.  While the claim that the transcendental argument commits this fallacy is not a strong claim, this argument can be used to move the conversation forward with the atheist if needed.

KnownNoMore has a few more videos about the transcendental argument.  However, we’ve been able to show the holes in his arguments thus far.  I’m going to switch gears and cover some more popular topics that brought up on the Google Plus communities for a greater variety of topics.

 

A Response to KnownNoMore’s Video: Sye Ten Bruggencate’s Presuppositional Apologetics Refuted, Part 2: Wrong about EVERYTHING???

This is the second discussion on Part 2 of a video posted by KnownNoMore.  If you didn’t see the first video, please check out Part 1 of my blog.  KnowNoMore has split up his rebuttal to Sye Ten Bruggencate’s presuppositional apologetic technique.  I’m ordering my responses to match each of his separate videos.

A little background:

I’ve recently been visiting Google+ communities to discuss the existence of God.  There are several communities that post and debate on atheist and theist materials.  I think is a great way to build your apologetic skills and be ready to address any questions you might get while sharing the Gospel.  There are many more atheists in the communities than there are Christians which is disappointing.  Also, it can get a bit overwhelming when you have 3, 4, or 5 atheists challenging you at the same time.  These communities are an excellent place to see Proverbs 17:12 in action! (Better to meet a bear robbed of her cubs than a fool bent on folly)  We certainly need more Christian voices on the web so please consider joining in the share the Gospel and glorify the Lord by addressing atheists on the internet.

I was recently using a presuppositional apologetic when an atheist stated that presuppositional apologetics was refuted and posted a link to these youtube videos.  There are actually several videos from a you-tuber knows as KnownNoMore.  These videos focus on Sye Ten Bruggencate and his presuppositional approach.  Sye has become very popular on youtube and has debated many popular atheists.  To learn more about Sye and his ministry, please visit ProofThatGodExists.org.  Also, check out his video produced by Crown Rights Media called How to Answer the Fool.  The video is an excellent resource for learning the presuppositional approach to apologetics.

I’ve been responding to these videos with the goal of creating a resource to direct atheists to when this video is brought up again to keep the focus on the absurdity of the unbelievers world view.  I also hope that other apologists can use the blog as a resource too.

Here is the video we will be looking at:

A common question that is asked when using presuppositional apologetics is “What do you know for certain?”  The idea is to discuss how the unbeliever can justify knowledge without revelation from God.  We’re not saying that the unbeliever doesn’t know things for certain, but that they can’t justify knowing something for certain with their worldview.  The unbeliever wants to make themselves the final authority for truth and knowledge and then they want to decide whether God exists or not.  This is the same sin that we saw in the garden when Eve began thinking that she could have certain knowledge apart from God’s revelation.

KnownNoMore states he can know two things for certain.

1.”That I, as a thinking entity exist”

2.”The laws of logic”

When asked how he knows these things for certain, he answers, “Same way that you think you know your God exists, from the impossibility of the contrary.”  I’d like to clarify this point because it’s often missed by the unbelievers.  The possibility of the contrary does provide evidence that God exists.  However, we have certain knowledge that God exists because he has revealed himself to all of us (Romans 1:19).

KnownNoMore then provides a syllogism to demonstrate how he knows he exists.  He states:

1.In order for thinking to be going on, there must exist a thinking entity

2. There is thinking going on

3. A thinking entity exists

And this thinking entity is referred to as “I”

However, the syllogism only proves that a thinking entity exists.  It doesn’t lead to any proof that KnowNoMore exists.  He makes a jump from the conclusion that a thinker exists to I exist, but doesn’t demonstrate how he gets there.  There is no way to get from a thinking entity exists to I exist.  This was also pointed out by atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell in his work The History of Western Philosophy, p. 567.

In Part two, KnownNoMore introduces a proof to show how he can justify certain knowledge apart from God.  However, he attempts to make a leap from the conclusion of his proof, a thinker exists, to that thinker is I.  His proof fails to show how he can know that he exists for certain.  This isn’t a new problem, and was also discussed by Russell back in 1945.

In Part 3, KnownNoMore will be looking at the Laws of logic for justification of certain knowledge apart from God.  We’ll examine his argument and discuss any flaws we find.